Kiringku Old vs Kiringku New and Illusionists

Time to answer yesterday’s question. There were four Kiringku’s to compare, Sapphire – Obsidian – Slave – and Fidelity. Based off their visual stats it’s not unreasonable to expect it to go Fidelity -> Slave -> Obsidian -> Sapphire, however the actual answer is Sapphire > Slave > Obsidian > Fidelity. The difference between Sapphire and obsidian is about 3 dmg per swing, Fidelity about 6. Slave beats out Obsidian because it gives more int/sp. Fidelity comes in last due to the low enchant level.

Congrats to RegressPuppy for realizing that Sapphire Kiringkus have some sort of innate bias. Congrats to Puddles for feeling like all Kiringkus are similar. Both of those things are essentially true.

So why is Sapphire the best for seemingly no reason? Well the code for calculating a Kiringku’s damage starts with an If statement that asks “Is this a Sapphire Kiringku?” If it is, set the core damage value to 16, otherwise set it to 14. This means by default, regardless of their small/large values, sapphire kiringkus do 16 base damage and ALL OTHER kiringkus do 14.

The game then adds two 1-6 dice rolls to that number. This is static for all kiringkus.

After that, it adds a weapon’s “+ Magic Damage” which is a field in the database that literally no weapon in the game uses. The actual +Dmg field that is displayed is never utilized, and thus is irrelevant for Kiringkus.

Finally, it does a calculation to determine a player’s (Int + Item SP) – 12, and uses that to calculate a percent damage increase. It’s about 9.2% per point of Int/SP over 12. It multiplies the damage value by this.

Here is where things get a bit crazy. When you hit something with a Kiringku, the game keeps track of the time. Every consecutive hit beyond the first does less damage. The formula is (DMG * .666^N) where the first hit N=0, and each hit after increments N by 1. After the N=8 hit, it resets N back to 1. If you don’t hit the monster for 4 seconds, the system resets.

It does this damage reducing calculation,  then adds weapon enchant value to damage, then returns it so it actually gets applied to the target.

Here is an actual example using a +7 Kiringku equipped by an 18 int illusionist with no other items.

14 base value (not sapphire)

Roll 1-6 *2, on average 7

DMG = 21

18INT – 12 = 6 * .092 + 1 = 1.55

DMG = 21*1.55 = 32


Now you attack. Here are the reduction coefficients: .666^0=1 ; .666^1 = .666 ; .666^2= .44 ; .666^3=.295 ; .666^4=.197 ; .666^5=.131 ; .666^6=.087 ; .666^7=.058 ; .666^8=.038

First hit N=0: 32*.666^0 = 32 + 7 (enchant) = 39 DMG

N=1: 32*.666=21 + 7 (enchant) = 28 DMG

N=2: 32*.44=14 + 7 (enchant) = 21 DMG

N=3: 32*.295=9 + 7 (enchant) = 16 DMG

N=4: 32*.197=6 + 7 (enchant) = 13 DMG

N=5: 32*.131=4 + 7 (enchant) = 11 DMG

N=6: 32*.087=3 + 7 (enchant) = 10 DMG

N=7: 32*.058=2 + 7 (enchant) = 9 DMG

N=8: 32*.038=1 + 7 (enchant) = 8 DMG

At this point, it would loop back to N=1 and continue down the list again. N=0 only occurs again if you don’t attack for 4 seconds.

Those damage numbers are then sent to the damage reduction code which applies MR. 100MR = half damage.


Legends and I spent a great deal of time over the last two days discussing this code. The way it currently functions Illusionists will literally never be competitive. Sure it may look like you do good damage against a dwarf, but that’s because they have no MR and don’t trigger the attack counter.

We’ve decided to scrap this code completely. Kiringku’s will function the same way all other weapons do (small/large damage ranges, +dmg, no weird timer calculation to reduce damage) except the following traits. They will gain bonus damage from Int/SP instead of from Strength. They will do magic based damage and be subject to the target’s MR. They will still hit 100% of the time. These changes will make Kiringkus overall significantly better than they are currently, so expect significant balance tweaks during Beta.

On the topic of Illusionists in general, the more we have delved into their abilities (comes up a lot while working on the skill code overhaul), weapons, and various strengths/weaknesses the more it’s become apparent how fundamentally flawed this class was on release. Some skills do nothing for them, others are made useless by their complete lack of scaling. The Cube code is convoluted and buggy. It’s no wonder nobody really played them consistently.

As a result we are making a number of changes to the class. These are going to require significant testing, but ultimately I hope will give the class more versatility and a desired role in a group both in PVP and PVE.

Here is a list of their skills, and an explanation for what we are changing. ? – ? dmg is because we will likely import the existing damage values, then adjust as needed.

MirrorImage - Self Buff 5 Dodge [Unchanged]
Confusion - Does ? - ? Damage + Short Silence Debuff [Mostly unchanged, damage will likely scale, probabilities tweaked for balance purposes]
Smash - Does ? - ? Damage [Damage is going to be buffed and designed to scale with a stat or weapon, was previously static and awful]
Concentration - Buff +5 MPR [Increased from 2MPR]
MindBreak - Does ? - ? Damage + ? - ? MP Damage [Original numbers are so low the skill is irrelevant. It will be buffed to do a more significant mana burn]
BoneBreak - Does ? - ? Damage + ? Stun [Numbers will be tweaked so this is a high success rate, low duration stun usable at a lowish range]
Patience - Debuff -2 dmg [Currently unchanged, may get a name change and may be buffed either in effect or success rate or both]
Phantasm - Debuff Sleep [Unchanged]
ArmBreaker - Detect [This is actually a translation error, the skill should be called EyeBreaker. It is just a detection skill]
Insight - Self Buff+3 Wis [Was previously +1 all stats]
Panic - Debuff -3 Wis [previously gave -1 all stats. Changed to be more in line with reducing MR]
JoyofPain - Max HP - Current HP / ? Damage Spell [The core concept of this skill will remain unchanged, but the value will be altered until we find a good balance]

Illusion spells have had a fundamental change made to them. You can only have ONE Illusion buff active at a time, as opposed to previously where you could have all 4. As a result, their effects have been improved or altered to make up for the change. Ogre and Lich can be cast on other players, but DiaGolem and Avatar are self only. When cast on another player, it has 1/2 the effect.  Can be removed by cancel.

IllusionOgre - Buff 6 hit 6 dmg [Previously +4hit +4dmg, both of which did nothing for Kiringkus. Does 3hit/3dmg when cast on others]
IllusionLich - Buff +4 SP [Previously +2SP. Gives +2SP when cast on others]
IllusionDiaGolem - Self Buff 10% Dmg Reduction [Previously gave +20AC. This gives Illusionists a way to become more tanky, at the sacrifice of their damaging buffs. Stacks with i2h]
IllusionAvatar - Self Buff +10% dmg done, +20% more damage taken [The damage taken aspect of this ability is unchanged, we converted the +10 Magic Damage to +10% damage]

Cubes are a nightmare. Rather than spend a month trying to fix them, we’ve opted to go a different direction. All of them will become auras centered on the Illusionist. Their effective range will vary. Only ONE aura can be active at a time. Can be removed by cancel.

CubeQuake - Aura, Int% chance to do a short freeze (.5 second) every 10 seconds - Lasts 60 seconds [Same function as the original cube. Chance changed from a static number to scale with INT]
CubeIgnition - Aura, Fire Dmg = Int per 5 seconds - Lasts 5 minutes [Same function as the original cube, but changed to scale with INT. Originally did 30dmg/5 for reference]
CubeShock - Aura, reduces MR by INT/2 - Lasts 5 minutes [Same function as the original cube, but changed to scale with INT. Originally did a static -10MR]
CubeBalance - Aura, converts Int/2 HP to Int/2 MP every 5 seconds [Same function as the original cube, but changed to scale with INT. Originally was static and a terrible conversion rate]

In PVE, Illusionists bring a few strong buffs to a group. They bring a useful aura that can fill different needs. Ignition for aoe farming, Shock to lower monster/boss MR, or Balance if you are facing tough late game content and want to restore mana to your party over a long fight. Their ability to always hit will help vs high AC bosses, and DiaGolem can help them survive if they get into trouble.

In PVP, Illusionists bring the only ranged stun in the game, which with it’s high success rate can be used to help set up chain disables or close caps on a fleeing enemy. Quake gives them a strong disruptive presence. Shock helps lower targets MR and set up kills. Confusion, Panic, and MindBreak will give them good tools for fighting mages and elves.

I know this feels like a lot of changes, because it is. Ultimately though, in it’s original form there was no reason to play this class. The gimped weapons and buggy skills, combined with being a squishy caster class, just made them completely nonviable. Hopefully reading all this makes the thought of playing an Illusionist sound better. I am extremely excited to see how they end up getting flushed out during the Beta. It’s going to take a lot of work and data collection, I fully expect many of the skills to require number changes, but in the end I think we will have a more diverse Lineage.



19 thoughts on “Kiringku Old vs Kiringku New and Illusionists

  1. RegressPuppy says:

    Well that is quite a bit of info to take in. I guess that explains why on live my +14 Obsidian that I had still never seemed to do much damage. I think at some point NC did a “Class Care” update that changed the code for how Kiringku works since you see a lot of Illusionists on K-Live and they are beasts.

    As for spells:
    Mirror Image: Supposed to be Uncanny Dodge for Illu to help them out (still squishy like a DE, but gives them dodge).
    Smash: On some servers they changed the spell to just be like an extra swing, others leave it like live (15dmg and 8cell range I think).
    Insight: This spell is too good to change to just +3wis. The Str and Con helped with carrying things, the wis helped with MR/MPR, the Dex helped with ER, and Int helped with SP/Magic Success.
    Mind Break: No clue what NC tried to do here, it still sucks on live lol.
    Bone Break (Stun): High Success, Low Duration (1second) Stun.
    Arm(Eye) Break: Detect, but wasn’t originally detect. Don’t know when they changed it to be detect.
    Confusion: Never noticed it did any damage, but the 4second silence that silenced even Knights is powerful.
    Concentration: I like the change, they changed it to 4MPR at some point on live as well.
    Panic: Never really used the spell because wtf is -1stat going to do when someone just walks up and bends you over.
    Phantasm: When the code works on a server, it is a great tool. A lot of servers fail to get any sleep spell to work right.
    Joy of Pain: This was changed to Reduce Weight because NC was like “lol this is a terrible freaking spell, lets give them reduce weight instead”.

    Cubes: I like the changes to being like Auras, it really allows them to be useful. Shock was SUPPOSED to be -25% MR to any target in range that wasn’t in your BP/Party, but I guess that is borked too.

    Illusions: Whats the duration going to be on them? What is the increased damage taken from Avatar? It was changed to be 5% at some point.

    Side Note: I have the server files (not a connector because I won’t pay $2000+ for a connector) for 7.6C somewhere if you guys wanted to take a look at some things in there (Dolls, Items, Spell/Weapon codes, etc).

    For reference, this site has the updates that have come in the clients after the one you guys will be running here.

  2. Puddles says:

    Kiringku reminds me of a story I did in college for a tier 3 English class. It was a parody of calculating how high a suicide jumper would bounce when they landed. Yeah, I caught a lot of flack from it from the students, but the assignment was to provoke a reaction from the class when read. So, I got an A and a few less friends. Some of the calculations involved predicting how many objects they would hit on the way down, like balconies or branches, type of clothing, shoes on or off, if they wore glasses to get a better aim at the ground for maximum damage, type of surface they would hit, was it raining, possible updraft at time of jump, day or night (went into a whole diatribe involving falling faster at night because light slowed you down, lmao, I still think there is something there.) it was all a riot.

    Kiringku, more confusing and elusive than a buttered butterfly.

    This was going to be the quote of the day, “When you hit something with a Kiringku, the game keeps track of the time. Every consecutive hit beyond the first does less damage.” Somehow my brain knew this was happening, but I had no empirical evidence to back that up. But then I saw RegressPuppy’s comment, “Panic: Never really used the spell because wtf is -1stat going to do when someone just walks up and bends you over.” Such an appropriately named skill when that happens, lol.

    All these changes to a skill set for a character will be a lot of fun, not just to play an Illusionist for a bit to see how things work, but to fight against them, or along side them. Might have to rename the class to, “Did I do that?” or, “Didn’t expect that to happen.” I’m sure comedy will ensue.

    On a side note, a few of us really tried hard to make illusionist work on live and private servers. As convoluted as the skills and damage formulas were, its not a shock why you could never get anything to work properly.

    Make it fun, and they will play it.

  3. Puddles says:

    We lost some comments. o.O

    OK, so let me get this straight…
    Quake aura = Holy Freeze, or act2 mercenary, nightmare difficulty.
    Cube Ignition = Holy Fire.
    Cube Shock = Holy Shock.
    Cube Balance = Prayer.

    And what I get out of this is that someone has been playing Diablo 2 LoD a little too much. Me Likey!

    Now, for the challenge over 9000. Find out a way to fit in corpse explosion, and I will be in heaven.

  4. To RegressPuppy

    I believe Legend’s looked into the code and found that confusion silence and mage silence use the exact same code, so in theory both should stop knights from using abilities. People just don’t cast silence on knights very often.

    We will consider keeping Insight +1 all stats, but it was primarily changed because the illusion buffs were improved.

    Panic as -1 all stats was pretty bad. I think -3 wis is a better starting point, and if needed to can scale it up. 3 wis removes a lot of MR from some people.

    The duration on Illusions will probably be 10 minutes for Ogre/Lich. Golem and Avatar will probably be 30 seconds. These are not set in stone though. Avatar is 20% increased damage taken in the original code, so we will keep it at that to start with. If it needs to be tuned, it will be done during the Beta.

    Joy of Pain, we discussed this spell a good bit actually. Talked about some possible rework ideas but ultimately decided to keep the core concept for now. It has a lot of interesting PVP potential, as long as the damage it does when you are very low health is significant. If we find players ultimately feel it just doesn’t have a use we can revisit revamping it. We probably won’t change it to a weight reduction spell though, as there are already lots of weight reduction items available to players.

  5. Puddles says:

    I am laughing so hard… Illusionist is going to wtf own everything that moves. All because of Joy of Pain. Wait for it…

    Quote of the day, “It has a lot of interesting PVP potential, as long as the damage it does when you are very low health is significant.”

    Illusionist is ALWAYS low health!

  6. Puddles says:

    Oh, and don’t get me wrong, I really really want to beta Illusionist now. It is going to be either more fun than a demon in a whorehouse or less fun than naked pictures of Oprah Winfrey. Cringe.

  7. You certainly can paint a picture with words Puddles.

    I think Illusionists will be fun and if they were over represented they might be quite strong. That said, people inherently tend to play Mage/Elf/Knight because it’s what they are familiar with. I do think Cube Balance is going to be a very useful ability to have for groups intending to do the top end elites, where health pools are huge and fights get very long.

    Compared to the old LoA/Anarchy, every class except Dark Elves will be stronger in some way. The only reason Dark Elves won’t be stronger overall is because of the rework for Armor Break and Enchant Venom. I’ll probably do a very long “list of class changes” post at some point in the future.

    Ultimately though, we won’t really know how things turn out until we release a Beta and let people test everything together. Characters are stronger, items are better, but content in general is also harder. Bosses are significantly stronger, and there is a much higher content difficulty ceiling. Until we get a feel for how they all interact, we can only compare raw numbers and speculate. It’s part of the reason I expect a Beta to probably run for 2-4 months with varying rates, so people can spend a few weeks at each stage of the game. We need early and mid game stuff tested, but ultimately need to balance around later game PVP , where people have levels and items that come with playing for a year or two.

    One thing to keep in mind though, I have absolutely no intention to balance solely around the idea of each class being equal on a 1v1 basis. Lineage PVP is in my opinion a team effort. From a X team vs Y team standpoint Lineage is inherently balanced since both sides have access to the same classes. If one side is losing because an Illusionist is smashing in their faces, but they are only running Knight/Elf/Mages, I’m not really going to feel a lot of sympathy if they cry “OP”. If Team X keeps winning siege after siege, that’s not really what I care about when it comes to balance. Team Y has the same tools available to them, it’s their own responsibility to utilize them and play better than their opponents. (This is the main reason “rare” skills are significantly more common than other servers. So one side doesn’t get the .02% CB drop and suddenly gain a huge advantage. Getting all your spells should take work, but also shouldn’t be so difficult it becomes a barrier for the effectiveness of your class)

    My actual goal when it comes to balance in PVP is class diversity. Every class should have a useful contribution to PVP. The more diverse the class distribution is in PVP, the happier I will be. There will always be some inherent bias towards a few of the classes, but that should not be enough that some classes are literally unplayed.

    One of the nice things about spending so much time rewriting bad code and creating easy database interfaces is it’s going to be very easy to make tweaks and balance changes. While we hope to make a few changes as possible after we go Live, if the general consensus from the server’s population is X is totally broken we can adjust it as needed. If we see one side in PVP is running 8 Illusionists and 1 Mage, we will address the issue.

  8. Puddles says:

    Quote of the day, “Team Y has the same tools available to them, it’s their own responsibility to utilize them and play better than their opponents.” THIS is what you want from a game, people to realize, from the start, balance is a game thing, not an individual thing. It is impossible to make 6 classes that have parity across the board. Not happening. All should have something to add to a given situation.

    All in all, I like your vision; game as a whole, not individual effort. I could not imagine a number that would represent how often I told someone, “It says MMO on the box, not solo/duel.”

    “Bosses are significantly stronger, and there is a much higher content difficulty ceiling.” Going to be difficult if there are not larger HP pools available to all the classes. From how you talk about the higher tiers of bosses and what I know about the game, there will be a lot of 1 shots popping off. Even at higher levels. Is this going to be addressed in any way, or are mages going to have 1k hpts at level 75, even with high con values?

    Everyone gets stronger but dark elves. Good to hear that. DE was off the rocker on Anarchy. But I’m pretty sure that was after you guys. Three shotting a 3k hp level 80+ knight was the norm with great gear and lots of excessive buffing.

    Elemental falldown + erase magic + destroy is going to be fun with the affinity aspect thrown in.

    Hooray for Cube Auras.

  9. In reference to bosses getting stronger, their raw damage output isn’t really what I mean.

    Yes, some bosses will cast spells that will kill you if they land, that is not a new mechanic. Old dragons did that to many classes. You need to be able to keep counter magic up. (On a relate note, Blank 4/5’s drop from a lot more things)

    “Harder” bosses will have to scale in different ways than just “does more damage”. One of the most obvious ways is they have more health, DR, and MR. This results in a longer fight where there is significantly more time for things to go wrong, a missed CM or i2h for example. The other way is by adding other kinds of abilities, and this is where things like Elites are going to shine.

    In the base Lineage people know, there are only a few boss mechanics outside “does damage to people” and they are few and far inbetween. Ant Queen and Abyss Master cancel. Varlok stuns. Laia polymorphs people. Chaos, Tarak, and Hellvine summon other monsters. All of these add an additional element of challenge to the boss beyond raw damage, with varying degrees of success.

    Our high end challenges will do these kinds of things and more. One of the driving reasons behind the skill system overhaul we are doing is to allow us to easily create new skills for monsters that go beyond just “does 500 magic damage”. A Tier 3 Elite won’t hit much harder than a normal Tier 3 boss, but he will probably stun, cancel, poly, erase, in addition to doing debuffs unique to him like reducing your AC/Hit/Dmg/Stats, and he will take a lot more damage to kill. He will be significantly harder because you need to be able to deal with more effects (that can be deadly beyond just face roll damage) for a much longer time.

  10. Hmm, I suppose it’s possible to make a boss where every single thing he does also polys you, making it so frequent it’s impractical to keep trying to change polys.

  11. Puddles says:

    Honestly cannot see all these changes getting done anytime soon. Maybe it is time for us to consider getting a base game out to polish it, and then add other systems together as updates.

    Translation. Lets get this sucker rolling so I can skill some stuff. All these great ideas getting me excited. Want to kill things.

  12. GMLegends says:

    As said before. It’ll be opened when its ready. Not before. I don’t want to get into a vicious cycle like before. Working on bugs and user issues and not getting any of the additional features we wanted.


  13. Yes, the mage summon system is still going to get an overhaul. We did a proof of concept edit much earlier on, adding DK to the summon options. We wanted to make sure it was possible to do, and having confirmed it was, that project was pushed back until after we complete updates to the more core systems. The changes we plan to make though are fairly flushed out at a conceptual level. I’ll do a post explaining in greater detail sometime in the future.

  14. XchaoX says:

    “Quake gives them a strong disruptive presence. Shock helps lower targets MR and set up kills”

    Do these work outside siege area? How does game know to toggle aura on other players if just normal hunting zone?

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