Erratum Regarding Karma…

Previously in a comment I had responded to a question about how Karma would work on our server. I had stated that it would be similar to shared XP, where it gives it to all party members and is static regardless of party size.

Since that post, Legends and I spent some time discussing the Karma system as a whole, and we’ve decided to make some adjustments to it…

  • The existing “Karma” system, where you have a hidden karma value that raises or lowers similar to XP, is going to be mothballed for future content.
  • Karma monsters will drop soul/blood shards fairly frequently, and on a per party basis. This is utilizing a system already in the game, where we can set it so if an item drops, it drops to ALL party members, not just one.
  • Soul/Blood shards will stack infinitely and will have zero weight.
  • You will trade soul/blood shards to a NPC. Level zero will cost a set amount, and each level beyond you will need to trade both your previous ammy/necklace + more shards. You can obtain and level as many copies of the amulet/earrings as you want for blowing purposes, but they will remain untradeable.
  • Soul/Blood shards in their old form no longer exist. You can only obtain Karma from hunting, not from turn ins.
  • Karma monsters will never become non-hostile.
  • There will be no keys required to access Karma bosses.
  • A teleport to the Sanctuary of Evil will be added for a modest fee.

So why are we making these changes? Here are a few of our reasons…

  1. We want players to be able to work on both sides of their Karma items at the same time. The existing system does not allow for this, and this change is significantly easier than overhauling the Karma system to allow for it.
  2. We want players to feel they have access to all of the Karma bosses. This is incredibly important both because of how good the items they drop are (Most T3 bosses are karma bosses, the rest are T2) as well as the inherent imbalance in their distribution (One Varlok boss vs Four Yahee bosses). We don’t want situations where a player can’t help his pledge kill Death, or can’t go party hunt with his friends, simply because they are committed to different Karmas.
  3. We are removing keys and the buff requirement to fight Karma bosses to make them more in line with other high end challenges. Dragons and Thebes bosses are both relatively easy to access, with their difficulty stemming from their raw strength. It makes sense for Karma bosses to be similarly accessible. That said, these bosses need to be aggressive, and as a result their areas will be aggressive as well.
  4. We want obtaining your karma items to be a direct result of hunting. You will not be able to buy your way into Karma items, but hunting as a team will make obtaining them faster.
  5. This gives us a very easy way to allow players to obtain repeat karma items.

Overall, expect the same amount of time needed to obtain a max level karma item solo as with the old system.

In summary, instead of invisible karma numbers, monsters drop shards. Shards drop party wide. Trade shards for Karma items/upgrades. You can obtain and level as many karma items as you want. Karma bosses don’t need keys, will kill you. You don’t need buffs to fight Karma bosses.



22 thoughts on “Erratum Regarding Karma…

  1. RegressPuppy says:

    Since the keys will no longer be required, will there be NPCs to teleport you to the next floor in TOS? I am super tired right now (yay night shift) so I will re-read the post later and be able to give a better response/some better questions (if any).

  2. JPShroud says:

    As these will now be party wide drops, is it possible that two players could be in separate areas and still get the drops.

    ie: im working on blood shards while my friend jimbob is working on soul shards, and we both are in the same party. Would we get both types of shards because they are party drops, or will the players have to be within x distance from each other (ie the length of the map).

    The reason i ask is because i can see this as a potential issue where someone wants to farm X for their knight, but it is faster to kill with their mage, so they sit the knight in town in party and mass kill on the mage.

  3. JPShroud says:

    Oh, Also, will players still be able to trade these items. I saw that they stack infinitely and that they weigh nothing, however as stated about, double farming could become an issue.

  4. Puddles says:

    Guaranteed, if you are not on screen, you will not get a drop. Hunting is a thing that needs to be done consciously. The post feels more like an amend or refine rather than an erratum.

    This post is indicative of the direction the server is taking. Simplifying overly complex systems and making them more user friendly. I believe for a game to be fun, you have to let the game be challenging yet not overly tedious. Working on both karmas at once is a huge step in that direction. Slimming down the drop tables is another.

    Also it needs to be noted, Lineage, in the early years was a group game. The more people by your side, the better you were able to navigate the challenges set before you. Over time, this changed where content was more solo driven. Which led to the pay to win crapfest we have today in almost all games. Nice to see systems being designed and implemented that will bring back group play that benefits everyone involved. Kudos.

    Quote of the day, “Karma bosses don’t need keys, will kill you.” My questions are, will they kill us with keys? Just how big would a Varlok 2h key be? Do they come in chocolate? (Delicious!)

  5. JPShroud says:

    Varlok Chocolate Key Blade… Halloween event weapon… does 1/1 and instantly kills “sweet-tooth” monsters.

    These monsters in turn drop “cavities” which can be searched. 1/1000 spawns a “sinfully sweet varlok” that drops lingerie.. for each class…. yearly Halloween event created…. kkthnxbye.

  6. Legends already answered a few of these questions but I will expand on those a bit.

    First, yes you will need to be physically present to get shard drops. Range is the same as XP range. Yes this does mean someone could in theory park 4 characters in the middle of TOS 1f while 4 other characters kill stuff around them and all 8 would get shards/XP. I am not really concerned about this possibility in all honesty. When we decided to change party XP to actually increase xp gained instead of splitting it, we knew we would be inviting that kind of behavior in general. I feel the benefits of rewarding players who actually socially interact and hunt together far out weigh the instances where players will attempt to power level each other. This goes for both Karma and XP.

    Shards won’t be tradeable because we want players to have to actively participate in working towards Karma items. We don’t want you to just “buy” your way to max Karma.

    A great deal of changes we have or will be making are done with the goal of bringing back a group element to the game. It is our hope that pledges are not just a chat channel players use occasionally while they do their own thing. Bosses WILL require teamwork. Hunting together WILL be faster leveling than solo.

    Even the summon shard system is intended to be a way for a pledge to pool a resource in order to accomplish something together that they could not on their own. An individual would need to spend a long time hunting in order to have enough shards to summon mid-high tier bosses, and even then he wouldn’t be able to kill it. But a pledge with 12 members might set a goal of farming 2 shards per person in a week, then meet up at a set time on the weekend to use all 24 shards to summon an E2 boss that they work together to kill.

  7. Puddles says:

    Now all we need to do is figure out how to share the burden of killing people in the game. Make the last hit chao, and give a pk count to all the others who hit? Put Hell into the game. Every 20 pk count puts you there for a tour of duty?

  8. Kersleaf says:

    One thing i always thought the game needed to keep high lvls from preying on low lvls was a lvl range for attacking. Say if your 5 lvls above a person you can’t PK them. Yet if that person 5 lvls below you attack you then you can defend yourself. I am not sure if this could actually work was just an idea.

  9. RegressPuppy says:

    I know there are restrictions in the UI in terms of party limits but there is a setting for max party size. With how the exp/boss changes seem to look, will there be an increase in the maximum party size? Or maybe have something like a BP Party that you can party the whole pledge into for the sake of bosses or pledge hunts?

  10. To Puddles/Kersleaf:

    PKing is on some level a fundamental part of Lineage. Lineage is a limited resource game. There are only so many bosses, and everyone is forced to share them. This is in contrast to a game like WOW, where everyone gets the exact same bosses each week. As a result, players need some way to compete for those resources and killing each other is the primary way.

    I personally don’t like random PKing. I think it’s a something jerks do when they become bored with the game. However, I think removing it would simply introduce other issues into the game. For example, if you are level 80 and you could only attack people within 5 levels, suddenly you can’t stop a level 62 from “stealing” your boss or griefing your hunting area.

    One of my the reasons we are adding so much custom content is make sure players always feel like they have something they can go do to change up their playing experience. In Vanilla, you could hunt for xp in a limited set of locations, look for some bosses, and maybe once a day do a very similar DM. Once a week maybe you got to siege, and occasionally PVP would occur naturally.

    We hope to have a much wider range of hunting zones, significantly more bosses who offer a much greater level of challenge, custom death matches that offer more unique challenges, a new daily pvp capture the tower map, random town invasion events, and twice weekly sieges.

    We are also hoping to have a working event scheduler and dynamic online calendar (These are not guaranteed, in Theory they shouldn’t be too hard but you never know until you work on them). How this works is the game will have a database where we can store event settings with unique IDs. We can give the server a command that says “start event 213 on Feb 6 8:00am and end Feb 13 8:00am”. The game stores that in a scheduled events DB, and at the start time it uses the stored event data to make whatever rate/spawn/item changes necessary for the event then schedules a reboot for ~30 minutes. At the event end time, it reverts those changes and reboots again.

    Our online calendar will pull from the scheduled event database directly, so players always know when an event is coming. It will also pull things like siege times, death matches, and scheduled restarts.

    To Regresspuppy:

    The core party limit of 8 we do not plan to change at this time. If possible, I could see us trying to implement some for of pledge party that would work similar to the “raid” system in wow, where you can see each others HP and possibly share buffs/aoe heals. You would probably get significantly reduced XP and not share “group” drops. The system would be for large scale PVP and large scale boss fights. It would not be for 16 man party hunts (maybe that could be an event or something, big party hunt week).

    I’ll talk to Legends and see how he feels about this idea’s feasibility and game impact. I also need to think more on this before I make a decision on if it’s worth implementing.

  11. Kersleaf says:

    This is just an idea that popped into my head from your reply. Would it be possible to make is so if you attack a boss or another monster that another player has already attacked it trigger it so you are attackable by the player who first attacked the monster or boss? Regardless of how much content you put in this game there is and always will be jerks who will PK.

    I played on Ken server on live and it was never a problem of others stealing kills from me. Also if you add as much hunting areas as you are saying you are then there shouldn’t be any competition for monsters and no need for open PVP to be able to get experience. Only real reason for open PVP would be for people to PK whenever they feel like it.

  12. JPShroud says:

    While I also do not enjoy the random PKs, I do believe that they are made possibly by a core function within lineage that should not be modified.

    If you have lowbies who are being killed, it is part of being a good BP member to go and help them out. In the past this lead to lower level players being killed if they joined certain pledges, however this also contributes to a core part of lineage. It is also a valid tactic to keep the pledge from getting stronger.

    This game is just as much a “politics” game as it is a hack and slash, and I for one feel that that should be preserved.

  13. To Kersleaf:

    There are other reasons for open PVP beyond just random killing. Many pvpers would argue that they attack and kill their enemies while they are hunting to gain or keep an advantage over them. This will be more difficult due to the high number of viable hunting zones, but it’s still relevant. If your pledge’s enemy starts hunting the same area as you, you shouldn’t have to just accept their presence.

    I strongly believe that instances of random pking rise and fall based off how competitive and consistent existing PVP is. If we create enough PVP focused content that is interesting, and we create a stable and fun enough server to have a good population, the instances of random PKing will be very low. It’s when one side dominates the game and ends up with nobody to fight that they start to prey on people not interested in fighting.

    That said, long term the “high” level players will end up in the 70+ range and most if not all PVPers will end up there. New players will be able to safely level in zones those high levels can’t go to all the way to level 60. At 60 you are strong enough to defend yourself in most cases. If someone does attacks you randomly, you have a ton of hunting zones you can switch to.

  14. Kersleaf says:

    I understand the way lineage works. I know you are adding a lot of hunting grounds to keep people busy. That said i also know that there will be those who will prey on low lvls cause they are easy kills. It happened on live and on all P servers i have played on. It will happen here also it is just the way it works on all PVP based games. there are those who don’t want a fair fight and will go after low lvls regardless of what you do.

    The 5 lvl thing was just a number i threw out. Maybe 15-20 lvls would be better. That way it would keep the High lvls from entering a low lvl area and pking just for kicks. And also not every time you need help is a BP member on who can help you. I like to PVP when i am in the mood for it. But I like that to be a fair fight to test skills against an opponent who i can win or loose against.

    Pking players in newbie areas or low lvl areas is not a fair fight for them.

  15. JPShroud says:

    i think the general consensus is that pvp will not be changing. at least that is what i understood form the posts above. so, yeah.

  16. We could debate pvp all day. PvE players will always want PvP gone. And the pvpers will always say lineage isnt lineage without pvp. We have made many gated zones protecting players. We are providing ample areas for hunting. We are building in more pvp content.

    But at the end of the day, if you are hunting fire valley at level 49…expect a high level to come and kill you. This will always be the case in lineage. There are just certain spots that will be the way they are. While it does suck if you happen to love fire valley and really have your heart set on hunting there…you may have to compromise and hunt somewhere else while the pvper is out and about.

    That all being said. Grief play wont be tolerated. If you are sitting outside of SKT waiting for a level 9 to go outside and just follow them around non stop because you can. Something will be said. We dont want to run people off from the server. (Id like to mention this has never happened on any server I have run that I am aware of).

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