Drop Changes, XP Changes, Spawn Changes OH MY!

Hello folks,

Figured it was about time for another post, so I thought I would talk a bit about what I have been working on and the reasons behind the changes. I have been using our tools (recently improved to allow more sweeping edits) to make some pretty significant changes to the drop tables, monster xp values, and spawn changes. Also a preview of our changes to the quest system/rewards.

First, drop table changes…

Lineage has a history of pretty wild variations in drop balance. There were times on live where bosses routinely dropped 2-3 lines of just junk. It is my hope we never go back to the days of all Risk no Reward. To that end, a lot of bosses in the game have gotten some drop list love, so that every time you kill a boss it feels at least somewhat rewarding. With the addition of many new items in the game, a lot of bosses also now have very rare items that will be extremely desirable/valuable. It is my hope that bosses will feel challenging (major buffs were made across the board, especially to HP), they will on average feel worth killing, and they will have a chance to drop something very nice rarely. Bosses were balanced based on assigning them tiers, so that things like enchants are standardized across the board. Most bosses in the game are considered Tier 1.

So how do you make bosses feel rewarding both every kill while still keeping rare items rare? Well with that a relatively major change was decided on. Zels/Dais are no longer sold in any stores, and their drop rates from standard monsters has been significantly reduced. Tauvs dropping nzels/ndais 10% of the time results in those items being so commonplace they are no longer had any real value. Having nzels/ndais sold in stores hard caps their value to players. Enchants will primarily be obtained by killing bosses. Some still coming from hunting but not with anything near the old inflated numbers. When drop rates are increased in private servers, it has a more dramatic effect on things dropped by normal monsters vs bosses simply due to how many more are killed. This change deflates that increase to help preserve enchants value.

Another change to compensate for this is one I have debated endlessly, and may find myself reverting later after it gets tested. All Adena drops from bosses (except dragons) have been removed. The value of a boss is in the items they drop, not the raw adena. This change is to hopefully encourage a flow of goods between boss hunting players and monster hunting players. Since the players who hunt bosses now have a greater advantage in terms of obtaining enchants/gear, we want to make sure they don’t ALSO have all the money. This change will also help combat inflation since less adena will be entering the system.

XP Changes…

Changes to the XP tables is something that Lineage has needed for a long time. As new content was released over the years, it was done with different XP formulas. They did not however go back and update existing content, so as a result newer areas tended to innately give more XP. This was extremely apparent in the new Talking Island and Ivory Tower (Those areas had spawns but no drop tables, so I’ve spent a lot of time working on them lately). I have gone through and adjusted the XP (mainly increased) of a lot of older hunting zones to accurately reflect how long the monsters in it take to kill. This is most noticeable in the upper TOI floors, but tweaks were made in most areas. In general, it is my hope that these changes make some of the older hunting zones a bit more viable so that not everyone feels like they need to aoe farm in Lasta (or more likely, in new TI/IT).

Another major change to XP was a dramatic boost to the XP given by bosses. You will still get more XP actually hunting, but a boss no longer gives roughly the same XP as killing an Astagio. Instead on average you will get closer to 10-15 times the XP a normal monster would give. This change was largely made simply because it felt silly bosses gave so little XP. I do not expect killing bosses to be a replacement for hunting, as the time you spend checking/finding them would net you far more XP if you actually were hunting.

Spawn Changes…

With the addition of the spawn editing tool I have been hard at work updating existing areas and creating some new ones. We are currently sorting out a bug with Grid Spawn favoring a specific quadrant, but we have a solution in mind that we plan to implement that will both improve randomness and decrease server load.

Many places have had spawn rates improved to various degrees. There are double the number of Tauvs spawning in FV now for example. With the removal of “Near Spawn” from TOI, I have increased the spawn rates on many floors to compensate, most notably on the floors players tended to hunt more often. Places that tended to historically favor melee classes were improved a bit more on average (MORE TURTLES IN ABYSS LAKE!). One of the new areas I am working on will also heavily feature undead monsters and high hp “mini bosses” worth a lot of xp, which will hopefully make the zone very good for melee classes (Also, there are more silver/ori weapons in the game. I’ll talk about that below). Those “mini bosses” will be similar to Ifrit in FV.

Quests/Rewards…

Quest rewards and quests. We are removing all the existing 15/30/45/50 quests from the game and replacing them with ONE standardized set of 15/30/45/50 quests. We are making this change for a couple of reasons…

First, some quests were made unfeasible by design changes in later updates. Talking Island and it’s dungeon are not safe for someone doing their level 15 quest.

Second, quests had pretty significant variations in difficulty/tedium between classes.

Third, we felt the lack of resources/guides for all existing quests made their completion overly frustrating.

We hope having one single set of quests will encourage players to play more classes and overall just make life less annoying. As for quest rewards, there were a lot of changes made to them to make them more viable. For every character, your 15/30/45 quest rewards all give a piece of equipment you should find valuable until you reach later content. The items are not intended to be absolute best in slot (although Royals are considerably better than other classes), but are intended to be better than the most basic of equipment. Some classes have completely new items that replace either worthless or imbalanced items they would have previously received (Illu wand/dk 2hs for example).

Every class now has a quality level 50 quest weapon, with a theme of them all being silver. These are intended to be very solid hunting weapons, but are eventually out classes by later content. There will also be a level 55 quest that gives a pair of earrings (same for all classes), and after level 55 you will be able to do a repeatable quest for a box that randomly contains one of your classes quest rewards. This will be how more quest items are obtained, they will not be sold in stores. Below is a list of the current quest rewards…

Mage 15: Book of Magical Powers
Mage 30: Shirt of Mana (Crystal Staff is now sold in weapon shops)
Mage 45: Cloak of Mana
Mage 50: Arch Wizard Staff (Crystal Mana Ball is now a rare drop from many caster bosses)

DE 15: Shadow Mask
DE 30: Shadow Gloves
DE 45: Shadow Boots
DE 50: Soul Cutter Edoryu/Claw (Finger of Death removed)

Elf 15: Elven Leather Boots (Old helm removed due to redundency with BOE)
Elf 30: Elven T-Shirt
Elf 45: Elven Leather Gloves
Elf 50: Sword/Bow of Flames

Royal 15: Crown of Royalty (Red Cloak removed due to redundency with Soverigns Majesty)
Royal 30: Guardian Ring
Royal 45: Soverigns Majesty
Royal 50: Scepter of Rightful Rule

Knight 15: Red Knight Hood
Knight 30: Red Knight Shield
Knight 45: Belt of Bravery
Knight 50: Death Blade

Illu 15: T-Shirt of Illusionist (Wand of Illusionist Removed)
Illu 30: Spellbook of Illusionist
Illu 45: Cloak of Illusionist
Illu 50: Sapphire Kiringku

DK 15: Belt of Dragon Knight (2hs of Dragon Knight removed)
DK 30: Dragon Scale Guarder
DK 45: Cloak of Dragon Knight
DK 50: Destructors Chain Sword

 

OK! That was a lot of typing. Hope you enjoyed the read. Please keep in mind that many of these changes will require further tweaking during the beta test. Please tell me your thoughts regarding these changes in the comments for this post.

Thanks!

-Myth

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19 thoughts on “Drop Changes, XP Changes, Spawn Changes OH MY!

  1. JPShroud says:

    WOOO!!! I love the fact that you guys are putting so much thought into this server. Seems like it may be one that sticks around for more than 6 months. I love you guys.

  2. Puddles says:

    Oooh, update, me like.

    Rare enchant scrolls. Nothing wrong with that. Lets not break the server by having an event that gives tons of stuff that should be rare. Cannot express this enough.

    Adena gone from boss drops with a trade off of more exp from them. Good deal.

    Updating the monsters exp will help in a lot of ways. Mostly in the fact that there will be more useful areas to hunt in. Balancing them in whatever way you come up with will be interesting. Basing it on hit point value will be a good start, but you also have to factor in things like elemental weakness, monster attack power, hard/soft armor class, density of monsters in an area, and lets not forget ability to turn un-dead. All these things will be hard to properly balance experience versus effort and time involved. Good luck with all those variables.

    Spawn changes can be make areas interesting for everyone. Especially for areas ‘intended’ for someone else. You have to consider things like ranged guys going into a traditional melee area and reaping the benefits of changes. Also, lets not forget the ever present mages rampaging around in there tossing area of effect spells all over the place.

    The changes to quests and their rewards is interesting and awesome. One thing that Lineage needed since day one was less things to worry about. Less quests, less duplicate items, less items overall, less ‘stuff’ in general. Spending an hour hunting and two with inventory management is never a fun thing. Just ask anyone who hunted in Lasta. The power potions also helps in the same way. Good one.

    Quest rewards are interesting in quite a few ways. One, you didn’t go over the top by applying aoe procs, or overpowered stats. Which means you are going to let the boss hunting, luck, and general effort of the players determine their own power and fate. Hunt more get more. Good to hear. Lots of servers fail in this way. Getting to the gear or level cap to early can hurt the life of the server. Hard to balance the two, especially with a private server. Lots of pservers out there give everything freely. People that play games today forget what it is like, or never experienced, how it feels to actually build a character and become powerful by hard work.

    Great post and lots of information shared that everyone can benefit from. But, the quote of the day goes to GMLegends, “Getting there, it actually feels like we might be playing soon.”

    Sweet music to our ears.

    • We have spoken in great length about events and drops. We never cared for loot weekends or items you can only get if you were on in this small window. Everyone should have equal chances to get items on the server. We do not want to devalue items by introducing them via an event. We are spending a lot of time and energy on making sure the economy of the game stays balanced and does not hyper-inflate. There are many things we are doing to control adena as well as having ample places to pull adena from the economy.

      We are taking knowledge from years and years of other MMOs out there, not just lineage. Looking at things they did or did not do that impacted the internal game economy. Our hopes are to keep the value of a single adena as close to 1 as we can.

      Myth can go into more detail about balance changes. He has many years of experience playing a mage and has actually made much of the content harder for mages specifically.

    • I’m going to try to respond to each part of your comment in order…

      Enchant scrolls overall won’t be super rare, but there won’t be a way to obtain them that I would consider “infinite”. You can’t just go down to Orim and buy 1000 nzels for 30k a pop in order to try to make a +9homr. You will have to buy them from players, hunt bosses, or farm them from hunting at a much lower rate. There will be significantly more bosses in game that drop quality loot, such as many of the “castle dungeon” bosses which are receiving a lot of love, so there are more opportunities to be had.

      I am not purely altering monster xp based off HP alone, but it does help as a starting point for comparisons. Stronger monsters almost always tend to have higher HP. The vast majority of these changes are overall minor tweaks, stuff going from 2000 to 2400 for example. A few places got major overhauls, but those are areas that are significantly more difficult (toi 81-100f for example). Even those areas won’t really be viable for hunting strictly for XP, they just won’t be so completely worthless in that regard.

      This kind of goes into the next part, spawn changes. One of the things I always keep in mind is how an area is hunted. With the removal of near spawn, TOI aoe farming basically because impossible in it’s old format. Monsters would no longer spawn near a player off screen, so you couldn’t just sit in the big rooms and gather the same packs over and over. To compensate, spawn rates were increased so that there is a higher density on the map. However, a Mage will still need to take a trip around the map occasionally to redistribute monsters.

      AOE farming is something that honestly you could spend forever working on getting balanced and never accomplish it. We will do our best to balance areas that favor Melee (High HP + Dmg monsters, crowded design) to be a bit higher tuned. Better silver weapons and undead hunting zones will also help, but ultimately a class that can aoe will always level fastest.

      With the removal of pet races/haunted house, we took the weapons you bought with a bravery coins and replaced them with a new system. Bosses can drop an item called a Token of Bravery. You can exchange that token for one of those weapons (plus a few new ones to cover all weapon types). These weapons will all feature some sort of aoe proc, but will be heavily tested/tuned to be as balanced as possible. I view them as giving non-mage classes a way to aoe farm but at a slower rate. It’s possible they will be scrapped, but it won’t be until post Beta when players have had a chance to test them.

      Gear progression is something we have spent a lot of time on, even on our old server. We want people to feel like there are things in the game worth working towards. To that end, we have tried to make sure that there are multiple “rare” pieces of armor available to players in every slot with different pros/cons. There are also Fidelity weapons for every weapon type/class (how you obtain them may be altered), as well as the elite dragon armors (will be crafted by obtaining dragon parts). We also have plans for other more unique end game items rarely obtained from our elite boss system, such as “bottomless” potions and a magic lamp that summons a personal genie vendor/storage npc. Quest items are intended to be something you obtain between 1-55, maybe do the repeat quest to try to over enchant them, but eventually replace with a nice piece of loot from a boss.

      Overall, with our drop rates and the amount of content, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect a player to still be working on stuff 3-4 years after starting.

      One addendum I will add, characters WILL be more powerful on this server late game vs a vanilla server. The late game items here are better in almost every way. However, late game (and even mid game) content is also SIGNIFICANTLY harder. Please keep this in mind when you are looking at the stats on an item.

      One of the areas I am working on is intended for group hunting for loot, gated to level 75+. It is going to be incredibly expensive to buy scrolls, and incredibly dangerous to go there. The “Monsters” (bosses really) will hit hard, have a lot of hp, and use all sorts of awful spells (stun/cancel/erase/wb/decay potion). People who go there unprepared will die, quickly. There will be no escape or resurrection and reduced regeneration rates. To leave you need to farm up unique escape scrolls from the monsters in the zone that have a timed life. A strong, well prepared, team will be able to hunt and bring back some quality loot with a chance for items that cannot be obtained elsewhere.

      At some point I may make zones/content for 80+ as well, but that will be after release.

  3. Toad says:

    I think lots of your guys’ economy ideas are pretty solid, well played.

    Also, the bottomless potion for a knight is something I thought would be pretty neat for a long time. Not sure how this would be handled, but something maybe something like 500 reds a day? Or maybe even infinite as long as their heal value is low

    • Toad says:

      I actually thought of something I meant to ask: what is the current plans for TOI charms? Tele to x1 floor, tele to boss floor directly…? And what about expensive NPC scrolls that would potentially take you directly to boss floor?

      Been on servers which did all of the above, so curious what you have planned for that : )

      • Currently a bottomless potion is simply an endless version of whatever the potion type is. There is no limit on the number of uses and it can be traded to other players. All of them are VERY RARE drops from various tiers of Elites (better potions from harder elites). This means I wouldn’t not expect anyone to obtain one until long after potion costs are no longer a concern to that player. It’s primary advantage is no longer having to worry about potion weight. As such, they are incredible items to get for their utility, but their overall function is identical to normal potions so they don’t mess with PVP balance too much. Again though, they are intended as rare drops from extremely difficult content.

        TOI X1 floor scroll drop rates are heavily increased, especially in lower floors. Bosses drop charms that connect to their boss floor, so ZQ drops 10f, Seer 20f, etc. The drop rates for these charms starts very low, and gets lower the higher up you go (ZQ is 2%, Seer 1.8%, and so on up to Grim with .2%). Tele scrolls will be available from an NPC for 10/20/30/40/50 floors at a rather steep cost. Overall, players should find that basic toi scrolls are much easier to obtain while charms are much more rare (and very valuable).

  4. Kersleaf says:

    Like the changes you are making. Makes the game sound more interesting than the average P server. Have a question though. the one thing that i hated about lineage was the loss of XP when you died. It never scaled to your lvl. At low lvls it was no big deal cause you could earn it back quickly.

    But when you got higher lvls it became a pain. Still loss the same percentage but it was a real pain loosing a few days work in a second. I not asking for it to go away just for it to be more reasonable than before.

    • XP loss on death will probably be somewhat similar to other private servers with some tweaks to make it a bit harsher at higher levels. Most other private servers I have played on had players lose 5% at level 50-64 and that was the most you ever lost. When you hit various doubling points at 65, 70, 75 the xp loss would scale down with you. At 65 you only lost 2.5%, and 70 you lost 1.25%. Overall, 5% at 50 is a relatively trivial amount on most private servers, about 5-10 minutes of work max regardless of class.

      Our server will probably retain a 5% loss on death regardless of level after 50. This means that at higher levels, that 5% will be more significant a loss than players at lower levels. A player in the 50-64 range might lose 10-15 minutes of work, while a player at level 80 might lose 2-3 hours. That’s the price of being powerful, although nobody should lose days worth of work. Original Lineage’s XP loss was brutal mostly due to how little XP people earned, but even the lowest rate private server tends to be at least 4x xp which makes deaths a lot more reasonable.

      XP loss on death is part of what makes the PVP side of the game fun. There needs to be some cost to dying so that killing your opponent feels worthwhile. The higher level you are, the more you have on the line in combat.

      As a side note, greater res will probably be changed to give something like 75% of lost XP back. Buying back from the church will still only restore 50% of lost xp. It will be advantageous to have a friend gres you if you die at a very high level.

  5. Puddles says:

    Great answers. Lots of information there to digest. Yummy. Still tons of questions, but they all can wait for the game to go alpha/beta/live. Don’t want to waste time on them when your time is better spent getting that carpet in place and that game out of the closet. Or was it cloud? Patiently waiting while on vacation.

  6. RegressPuppy says:

    Not sure how I feel about the removal of Adena from bosses, but I suppose it is something that I can’t really give any opinion towards til experiencing it. I do like most of the other changes though such as quest items, making bosses drop something (boss drops like on Legends of Aden/Anarchy were great because at least with having Adena you knew you got enough money for your potions), and the EXP changes. It will be interesting to see how the removal of Near Spawn actually changes AoE as some places such as Mage Room, Beast Room, and Basement in Lasta have monsters spawning all over the place as it is.

    • Even with the removal of adena, I think boss hunting overall is quite lucrative. Many bosses actually had their enchant drop rates increased, and were given more types of enchants. While it’s technically possible you can get a boss who drops no enchants and nothing really of value, it would be an incredible roll of bad luck. With the removal of nzel/ndais from stores I expect even them to be valuable enough for players to recoup their potion costs on their own. T1 bosses, the category that most bosses in the game fall into, almost universally drop nzels/ndais at 80% (1-5 total) and bzels/bdais at 70% (1-2 total). I’ll post an updated “Tier” list and their current average stats sometime in the future.

      Lasta actually never even used the near spawn code. Monsters there just spawned randomly in the same way that TOI will now. Those rooms are just small enough that you can easily pull the whole area. On the topic of Lasta, the current version of the game we are on doesn’t actually have the version of Lasta players are used to. We are working on rebuilding it.

      • RegressPuppy says:

        Ah yes i forgot you guys are running 3.63 now and so Lasta is changed. I think putting a level requirement and then making tele scrolls to the different rooms/floors would be the best way to go as it ensures people arent working on fids within the first week (if you put the minimum for lasta at say, 70 that requires having a 70+ mage as well as 1 to 3 dps players to run it). If I am not mistaken, the majority of the doors don’t work anymore that would send you to the next floor which would make it so you have to be a certain level to enter that floor.

        Like i said with the boss changes, it is something that would have to be experienced to give a proper opinion on it since we don’t know for sure what will drop yet (you guys do, but we don’t!).

  7. JPShroud says:

    I check the blog almost daily, has been that way for a while now. I have all kids of opinions, however I would like to Experience you guys’ adaptation of this amazing game before voicing them.

    I do want to ask a question as to the “Newb TOS/Demon Gate” areas. Will newb karma areas stay kind of the same, At this point you can get a pretty decent set of Earrings/Amulet for just hunting from level 45 to 52 in these areas. IE: level 2-3 karma earrings.

    I did notice that you all stated at 55 there would be a quest for Earrings. Assuming these are like other quest items, and meant to only last as basic “Starter Mid Game” gear, how will these compare with the lower/Higher level Karma Earrings that are available through the Karma System.

    • As of this time, those areas will remain “newbie” areas, allowing players in the 45-52 bracket a relatively safe place to level. The Proving Grounds will remain a level gated zone for players 50-60. There will be other hunting zones with minimum level requirements beyond those, but those won’t have maximums.

      Characters start with a pair of “Ivory Tower” earrings which give 1hpr/1mpr. Players will most likely replace those with lower level karma earrings. These will likely be replaced with either Purification earrings + color amulets (Set gives +2dex/int/str based on color, same as many other private servers) or with the 55 quest earrings (These currently give +1 Primary) based on how good their amulets are.

      From there, players will have several progression options. I expect most people will want to obtain many of these to have gear flexibility, as these are more tailored around a “role” and less about being the best item at everything.

      Finishing the Karma Earrings will give them an item with solid defensive stats and weight reduction. They can hunt toi 91f for a trio of very rare earrings, which are themed around physical offense (hit/dmg), magical offense(sp/mpr), or defensive stats(dr/resists). They can seek out ice queen earrings, which have been reworked to give +2 primary and some other stats at max craft (drop rates of base earrings and crystals tweaked).

      This leaves players with the following progression:

      Start: Newbie Earrings

      Early: Low level Karma Earrings

      Mid Game: 55 Quest Earrings / Purification Set

      Later Game: Karma (WR Set) 91f Guardian (Defensive Set) 91f Fighter/Wizard (Offensive set) IQ (Balanced)

      Ultra Late Game: Over enchanted items + Unreleased content TBA

      Essentially, the level 55 quest earring is balanced to be the same as a normal amulet (str/dex/int ammys) + earring when compared to the Purification set. It does however give players a solid option should they obtain an amulet better than the standard ones.

      • JPSHROUD says:

        I will be curious to see how these hold up to top tier, as of I am assuming correctly, the higher quality amulet you have the better they are.

        So it will be interesting how they are modified by say a level 8 karma necklace, and or a black wizard ammy.

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