Crafting Changes and Bow Changes

Another Post!? It’s a Christmas Miracle!

Seriously though I will try to post more frequently. Today I am going toΒ  talk about crafting and about bows. First up, crafting. Crafting in vanilla Lineage is extremely under utilized. It was at one point very significant, but time eroded the value of many craft-able items. Add in the difficulty of accessing crafting NPCs (simply knowing where the hell they are can be a challenge in itself) and you end up with a system really only used for a few choice items. I want to revitalize crafting a bit, and to accomplish it I’ve been working on a number of things I feel will help.

#1: Centralized crafting location. All crafting NPCS will be in Giran Trade Zone. This is so anyone who decides to play can easily find the right crafting NPC. There will be no “elven” specific crafting, all classes will be able to craft everything. Lots of NPCS will likely be eliminated, combining what they crafted into easier to recognize/navigate sources.

#2: Crafting Material overhaul. This is something I have spent a ton of time on, and what I work on a lot in my spare time. Thousands of drops have been tweaked, removed, or added. Many new crafting materials have been created, including things like a new tier of gem above top quality. Working to standardize each tier of gem so that their “rareness” reflected their quality accurately has been a lot of work. Lots of the rough metals now have more drop sources, but will also have more uses.

Β [Note: The little 5 and the other number below the “icon” can be ignored, they are only there because I pulled these from the sprite page. They don’t show in game]

#3: More craftable items and improvements to some existing items. Players will have many more craftable items that will be useful for different stages of their progression. A few examples of these are…

*Improved Elemental Cloaks

*New 15% MR rings (Keep in mind MR and Wisdom were rebalanced, this will make the lower MR to Wis benefit easier on melee classes)

*Upgraded Versions of all Ancient Armors, which will all be enchantable (safe +0). Each has unique crafting requirements.

*Upgraded Versions of Ancient Sword/Greatsword. These are enchantable, but stats are more similar to the weapons they are combined with; TSU and DSlayer. These have elemental variants and currently plan to have a “buff” proc.

*A new crafting requirement for Fidelity weapons (still TBD)

*More appropriate “early” tier weapon/armor crafting requirements (TSU and Elven Plate Mail for example)

*A way to craft TOI scrolls

*New Gold, Silver, and Platinum Tipped Arrows!

That last one segways into our next topic, bows. Bows have long been in a very weird place. Because of how “hard skinned” monsters worked, bows traditionally did 50% less damage to pretty much every boss in the game. This, coupled with how absolutely absurd the proc was, resulted in pretty much every elf using a Thebes bow. 95% of a Thebe’s bow damage was done via the proc, which used unique and frankly garbage code (A thebes chaser couldn’t kill anything for example). Elves with thebes bow could compete or even exceed other classes in damage output on bosses, but they HAD to use that bow to do it. We are 100% moving away from this requirement.

To start, we removed “hard skinned” from the game. No weapons will break. Everyone does full damage, even bows. This solves part of the problem, but doesn’t really change the fact that Thebes doing 900 dmg procs is insane and no other weapon can compete. When we finish the skill overhaul and rebuild weapon procs, thebes will end up getting nerfed. It will proc once, for an ok amount of damage, somewhat often. It is intended to be a step between early bows and late game bows, not the end all be all of weapons. It’s possible we will reimplement some sort of “bow wide damage nerf” if we feel it’s necessary. We debated removing the hard skin bow damage reduction for a long time, and ultimately felt it didn’t serve the purpose it once did, especially with how common “unbreakable” weapons became.

Thebes is not the only bow getting reworked, in fact almost all of them are. All “crossbows” will now be 1handed (xbow, ancient bowgun, kaiser xbow, devil’s xbow…). In many cases their damage has been improved, and their +hit has been significantly increased. They will lag behind two handed bows in damage, but allow the use of a shield to compensate. Given more shield options, including a unique powerful boss tier elf only shield, this may be a popular choice. two Handed bows will do more damage on average, and have a variety of options at the top end of the curve to suit different play styles.Β  Some procs will be Int based (Bow of Cold Mystery, Thebes), others Dex (Longbow of the Moon), and Fidelity will likely be Primary based. Some bows won’t have a proc, and simply will have very high raw damage (Bow of the Ancient Elves, Unannounced Crossbow). All of them will be balanced to do similar DPS overall to their counterparts at high levels, but the distribution of that damage will vary (Burst vs Steady).

Overall, I think Dex elves will be much better than they were previously, especially with improvements to Wind. Int elves will still be strong, but won’t have the insane damage output in PVP Int proc weapons gave them previously. These changes are all things we will look extremely closely at during Beta, and will adjust or revert as necessary. All classes pretty much across the board will be stronger than they were in Vanilla, elves are not alone in this. Also keep in mind there are other changes to skills, both in how they work and their effectiveness, that will factor into overall class strength. I ask everyone not to cry “X is OP!” until we’ve had the chance to have them tested in mass.

To wrap up, those new arrows go in line with the following arrow progression:

Wooden Arrows (6/5)- For Newbs and Poor People, sold in shops practically for free

Mithril Arrows (7/7) – For Newbs and Poor People to kill Undead, sold in shops for very cheap

Oriharukon Arrow (9/9) – Easily crafted using Oriharukon, good for hunting undead

Black Mithril Arrow (10/10) – Standard Arrow for everyone, sold in shops for a modest price

Gold Tip Arrow (10/13) – Crafted using Rough Gold, For killing large bosses or rich people

Silver Tip Arrow (11/11) – Crafted using Rough Silver, For killing undead bosses or rich people

Platinum Tip Arrow (13/10) – Crafted using Rough Platinum – For killing small bosses, PVP, and/or rich people

All arrows have had their weight reduced fairly significantly. Unlimited Quivers will be rebalanced/reworked.

 

That’s all for now. Feel free to leave questions in the comments section, I’ll do my best to answer them.

-Myth

Comments
Will the Logbook mini quest still work? Through it you were able to get a nifty little crossbow called Indiscriminate…
I'm not opposed to the idea of adding more polymorph related items or sets. For the record, Demon, DK, Kurtz,…
The Dragon Knight speed spell "Bloodlust" has had it's effect rolled into our new "Power Potion" which is a universal…
Cool Westknights client is on Github, now if only I knew how to use it lol
How would you guys (Myth and Legends) feel about more polymorph weapons/sets in the game? KoD had a Sniper Set…
There is a weapon with that, it is called Great Sword of Destruction. It is crafted by Joe's Stone Golem…
Go to github.com and search for L1J. You will find lots of open repos with code for various versions. 3.5,…
The bow tweaks are long overdue, if for no other reason than to add variety to a game that seems…
be the time to see*
Glad to have you back at it Legends :) Yes Myth opened the diskussion with his reveal of the changes…

22 thoughts on “Crafting Changes and Bow Changes

  1. Dinin and so many more says:

    Well this was something to think about.. elven changes and bows will be something to try out for sure in the beta. As elves is something I love to play..Next after mage of course..

    • I have always been a Mage player, but working on class changes has really tempted me to try something else. I think Knights, simply by nature of having less abilities, will feel the most unchanged. Their biggest changes will be CB not being unobtainable except for the absolute elite, and Solid Carriage being reworked into an actually good defensive ability. Their role as “tank” should feel more fillable and more necessary given the increased difficulty of bosses.

      Elves I think are a bit more pro/con. A lot of our changes to elves will feel good. Some abilities are changed, either to improve quality of life or give them more variety. This bow change obviously helps even them out with the raw damage classes in PVE. But some elf spells are getting nerfed (erase and ebind for example), and that obviously won’t feel great to life long elf lovers. That said, Fire elves are IMO a dark horse candidate for most improved “class”. I think they are going to be extremely strong (to the point where I am expecting to have to nerf them). New weapons and armor, some designed around fire elf specifically, give them way more late game itemization and will help them be competitive. A fully buffed fire elf with soul of flame is going to bring the pain.

      Dark Elves, obviously won’t be as broken as they were with the lvl 80 Armor Break. They will however have more items, some quality of life ability changes, and hopefully a better role in PVP. They should still reign supreme in terms of raw melee damage, but fire elf definitely gives them a run for their money.

      Illusionist is I think the single most improved class we’ve worked on. Tons of abilites have been reworked to be more functional, while still trying to maintain the class identity. Fixing the Kiringku code alone though will make a massive difference. Illusionists are going to hit hard and come with lots of nasty PVP abilities and great buffs. Still squishy though.

      Dragon Knight changes are less drastic than Illu, but should still be a good “hybrid” class. Not as tanky as knights, but more tanky than elves. Good burst damage, an interesting lifesteal mechanic, and powerful short duration self buffs.

      Royals are my other dark horse candidate for most improved. There are a LOT of royal only items that are extremely powerful. Their buffs are extremely strong, and we are adding a very unique mechanic to their “true target” ability in that it will put a health bar on the target (work in progress). Add in their inherent bonus XP to parties and having one royal around will be a great benefit in both PVP and PVE.

      Mages have some interesting changes, but overall I don’t think they are much stronger. The affinity system doesn’t “increase” their damage as much as it allows them more versatility in avoiding player resistances, but even then it’s actually not as significant as people might expect. The summons change is actually probably the biggest change, and will require a lot of balance work, but it does have a hard counter in elf Return to Nature. Some of the stat changes hurt mages early on, but benefit them later (int for example doesn’t scale as hard in the 18-25 range, but catches back up and scales better around 33). People in general will have more access to MR items and resistance items at high levels as well. That said, mage has always been at the top of the food chain and even if they are not the absolute wrecking ball of damage anymore, their utility will always make them a popular class with a strong defined role.

      I am extremely curious to see how our class distribution ends up. There are a lot of reason to try and form balanced parties, both in PVP and PVE. I don’t expect the traditionally less popular classes to suddenly become favorites, but I do hope we see some people playing a bit of everything.

  2. Dinin and so many more says:

    Fire elves with soul of flame and a good weapon did hurt plenty on the 0ld server πŸ˜› When earth elves were nerfed into the ground most changed to fire and went for the dk flame sword. I played just about everything on the old server, my water elf was my love in the elves… simply because I played the elf as a pet users and my heal all allowed me to heal my pets. I went with a less powerful bow to allow my pets to hold aggro… and I used the elemental bow with no arrows needed to do pretty much as long hunts as I wanted to. It was very safe and no stress hunts πŸ™‚ My fire elf + mage combo was pretty ok..but not as ok as my de + mage combo. Knight + mage was not able to do with any of the other comboes could. thus I gave up on the knight in the end. Apart from playing around on him to let mobs kill themselves since I had the skill lol
    Will be interresting to try illu again, if it really is a better class now, I might take one to 52 and more..

  3. Jimbo says:

    Thanks for this awesome update =)

    I’ve been an Elf for most of my Lineage career. Definitely saw the Thebes nerf coming. On the last server I played, almost every elf was INT and used Thebes bow. It felt very weird to me that weapons which were much harder to obtain (like Moonbow), did less damage than Thebes.

    • Thebes nerf has definitely been needed for a long time. For how easy it is to obtain, it shouldn’t be the best bow in the game. It scaled way too well with SP, and the fact that each proc was essentially 3 procs made it that much more insane. That said, there will be plenty of weapon options available for elves to shoot for.

      As a side note, a bit of info regarding how I look at weapon balance. I tend to start by comparing “average dmg per hit”. Essentially, if you use the weapon with a high baseline stat (typically 40 dex/str/int), and hit 100 times with it at safe enchant level, how much damage per hit do you do on average? This is essentially a formula, (average core weapon damage + weapon bonus dmg + enchant damage + stat damage + [proc chance * proc damage]). I use this number to compare between different weapons and adjust stats. I am trying to create variation in “how” damage is dealt while keeping the overall average damage similar. Bow of Cold Mystery will have a pretty low proc rate, but the proc will do good damage. Longbow of the Moon will have an extremely high proc rate, but each proc will do fairly low damage. Both will be within 1-3 average damage of each other overall, and with a non-proc bow of the same tier. Personal preference will be the deciding factor for if you want more random, spikey damage or steady consistent damage. I wouldn’t be surprised if people ultimately carry two or three different bows for different situations, just like melee classes tend to carry a few different swords/daggers.

  4. Dinin and so many more says:

    Well for an elf carrying more than 1 bow can be an issue as they tend to be heavy.. and if you also need to carry 1000’s of arrows even more so.. elves do mostly not tend to have high str and con.

    • There are quite a few more sources of weight reduction in the game (new items and enchants for example), and again arrow weight has been reduced by more than half. I don’t expect weight to be a limiting factor in regards to carrying an extra bow and shield.

  5. Dinin and so many more says:

    Well we shall see if I will be able to carry 2 bows, a shield, arrows in their thousands, mgems, sgems, wafers, clears potions, food for the pets & everything else I always carry with my water elf doing pet hunts. Sounds like I can and that would not be a problem then.. If not when I test it in the beta haha I will let you know Myth lol

  6. Austin says:

    Hey man, probably a low chance but I am looking to buy server files with connector. Looking for clean files. nothing custom added. If you guys are interested in selling files please let me know will leave email address. By the way love the shit you guys are doing.

    • GMLegends says:

      Go to github.com and search for L1J. You will find lots of open repos with code for various versions. 3.5, 3.63, 3.80 being the most popular. Just grab, build, and find the respective clients. Not super difficult. Most of the source repos will have the connector with them. If not I have all of them somewhere and can find the one youll need for whichever client/server you go with.

  7. GMLegends says:

    Love the discussion, I am back working on the skill changes again. Going into the holiday season, hopfully have a little more time to work on all this πŸ˜€

    Still very much invested in this project.

  8. Dinin and so many more says:

    Glad to have you back at it Legends πŸ™‚ Yes Myth opened the diskussion with his reveal of the changes to come. So of course there will be discussions πŸ˜‰ Beta will be the to see if it all holds up as betas usually are.

  9. Some Beech says:

    The bow tweaks are long overdue, if for no other reason than to add variety to a game that seems to always have 1 build per char.

    I don’t recall from previous updates, is there any talk of adding life leech type of weapons into the game? Nothing crazy, but something which offers a couple hp per hit with weaker dmg output is something I’ve thought would be a nice addition for knights.

    • RegressPuppy says:

      There is a weapon with that, it is called Great Sword of Destruction. It is crafted by Joe’s Stone Golem (same npc that does Thunder God Sword, Magic Dagger, Wind Axe, etc). It steals around 5-6hp per swing last I remembered, but it is a 2handed sword which doesnt make it very attractive.

    • The Dragon Knight speed spell “Bloodlust” has had it’s effect rolled into our new “Power Potion” which is a universal potion that gives class appropriate buffs to everyone (wis pot for mage, brave for knight, wafer for elf etc. all rolled into one). The spell itself will give DK’s some amount of lifesteal, which will function like a spell/weapon proc and remove X amount of HP from the enemy and heal X amount of HP.

      As someone else said, Great Sword of Destruction had a lifesteal mechanic.

  10. RegressPuppy says:

    How would you guys (Myth and Legends) feel about more polymorph weapons/sets in the game? KoD had a Sniper Set that gave lvl 55 archer poly instead of Dark Elf Set. I tried to mess around with my own server and bind polymorphs to weapons, but couldn’t seem to get it to work. I made weapons like “Sword of the Arch Knight” which gave lvl 70 poly but required lvl 60 to use (stats were 25/19 9hit 6dmg 3str and was a .1% drop from DK). I think that having tiered weapons like that would be cool, so something like a Tier 4 DK Sword that has a minimum lvl req of 70 and is buffed compared to lower tiers. I know you guys said you wanted to do something of the sort when it came to dolls and enchanting them so doing it with items (crafting system would work too, a +10 Tier 1, 50mil, and some other stuff for a Tier 2).

    • I’m not opposed to the idea of adding more polymorph related items or sets. For the record, Demon, DK, Kurtz, and DE sets are all much easier to obtain that on vanilla servers. DK for example drops all the set pieces now (AQ no longer drops boots, and you don’t have to go to FI for gloves). Helmet, boots, and gloves are 1.5% drop chance, armor is 1.0%.

      One thing I may change is making Ken/Cerenis sets give the level 75 Ken/Cerenis polys. If I did this, I would probably also adjust their drop rates and stats. We are actually moving away from minimum level requirements for gear, having removed a lot of them from the game (ancient armors for example). I’m not sure if I want to go back in that direction at the moment. I tend to believe that anyone who has obtained a good item is probably an appropriate level. If they want to then use it on an alt, I don’t really have a problem with that. Faster alt leveling due to amazing gear is a perk of having spent the time to get said gear.

      With that said, I don’t think I’ll touch the level 55/60/65/70 polys, and it’s for the same reason I am hesitant to change ken/cer. I want there to be some visual way you can show other players your approximate level. The whole point of the arch polys is to do this, functionally they are the same but visually they let people know how strong you are. Yes, some people only ever use DK and never reveal their level, that’s perfectly fine. However, I don’t want to take away people’s ability to showcase their hard work if they so desire. I’ll discuss this with Legends and see where we stand.

      The main goal with adding doll enchants was to keep the doll economy robust. I am of the opinion that if you want something to retain value, it has to have some way to remove itself from the economy. Making dolls have an enchanting incentive means some will get blown up. It also has the added bonus of giving players more things to work towards. Between the multiple types of ring enchants, new doll enchants, and lots of new items, players should have no shortage of goals to work towards. This is part of the reason I decided to make craftable upgrades to all the ancient armors/weapons that can then be enchanted. It gives players a use for ancient scrolls beyond just leveling from 45-55. While some may argue this just hurts newbs who won’t be able to afford ancient scrolls that vets are buying, I would argue that ancient scrolls are not hard to hunt for, and newbs may benefit from being able to sell them to stronger players who would rather pay than hunt FI.

  11. RegressPuppy says:

    Will the Logbook mini quest still work? Through it you were able to get a nifty little crossbow called Indiscriminate Arbalest.

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